Chapter 151: The Holderness Family conquers content creation by corralling chaos

Listen to the chapter here!

Penn:

Listen to the muttons, boy, listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, and won'ts. Listen to the never-haves and listen close to me.

Anything can happen, child, anything can be.

Neil:

Welcome to Three Books with Neil Pastricha, where each episode we uncover the three most formative books of an inspiring individual. Hey, everybody, this is Neil Pastricha, and welcome or welcome back to Chapter 151, 51, 51 of Three Books. You are listening to the only podcast in the world buying for book lovers, writers, makers, sellers, and librarians.

We believe in no book guilt and no book shame. We believe in reading what you love until you love to read. This podcast is meant to provoke and push us all back into the written word.

We think there is great wisdom to be gleaned from not scrolling all the time, but just getting back into books. This chapter's letter comes from Coralie from Forrester, Australia, who writes, Hi, Neil, I stumbled across your podcast Three Books by accident only recently. It has given me the intellectual stimulation I have been craving for a long time and encouraged me to start reading again because this was one of my favorite pastimes before I had children.

Thank you again for the fantastic podcast. From Coralie L. from Forrester, Australia.

I looked up Forrester, by the way. It's on the Gold Coast above Sydney, below Byron's Bay. I guess that's the Tasmanian Sea.

Is that what that's called? Beautiful. Thank you so much for writing in.

As always, if I read one of your letters on the air, drop me a line with your address. I'd love to sign and mail you a book. Yes, even to Australia.

You can also call us anytime at 1-833-READALOT, R-E-A-D-A-L-O-T. All right, now let's get into Chapter 151. I'm very excited to let you know that the Holderness family is here.

Penn and Kim Holderness, the Holdernesses, the winners of Season 33 of The Amazing Race, although that's not kind of like a suffix on their bio with how much stuff that they have done. I mean, they have created videos that have been viewed two billion times. I mean, I've watched their videos.

Leslie's watched their videos. We send them around all the time. They have this wonderful Under the Sea parody all about ADHD.

They have this Frozen parody that's called Where Is My Phone? And my favorite, I guess the first one that I kind of really loved and sent to everybody and got into was the Hamilton Mask Up parody, which came out right at the beginning of the pandemic when people were like struggling and confused about wearing masks. Should we wear masks?

Should we not wear masks? Well, cue the Holdernesses who use Hamilton music to say, I am not throwing away my mask. I am not throwing away my mask.

It was a wonderful video. It's got millions of views. Many of their videos have millions of views.

They got eight million followers online. They host the weekly Holderness Family Podcast. I don't know how they put out at such a staggering pace such good content, but it's a wonderful show.

If you don't know it, download it, subscribe to it, follow it, check it out. And also they are the authors of one of my favorite books I read all of last year, which is called ADHD is Awesome. We're going to talk about it a little more on the show, but essentially Leslie and I were going through the conversations and diagnoses with like psychologists about one of our children.

And it was pretty obvious that I also have ADHD, but ADHD isn't the right name for it. We're going to talk about better names for ADHD, the secrets of making great comedy, the benefits of turning 40, premarital counseling tips, Shel Silverstein's best poems, the benefits of introverts, and of course, Penn and Kim Holderness's three most formative books. This is going to be a four-way conversation.

My beautiful and lovely wife Leslie is joining us too. Let's flip the page into chapter 151.

Kim:

Yeah, I talk about it all the time. I talk about it to anybody who'll listen. I have a friend who is in therapy with some severe anxiety, and she's very, and as I was, I was very resistant to a prescription medication.

And then finally my doctor was like, why? Because I'm afraid I'll need it for the rest of my life. And so this is what goes through my head.

And like, what if there's a zombie apocalypse and I can't get it? And she, I said that out loud. And she's like, I feel like you're going to have a lot of other problems at that point.

You were so right. Give me the medication. And it has been, it has changed my life, but I'm also in perimenopause.

So that's, that's, you know, different too, but I just want my kids to hear it. I want anybody to hear it. You don't even need to be on it forever, but if this is something you're struggling with, get help.

Yeah. Get on some meds.

Neil:

Beautiful. And thank you so much for your openness and vulnerability as always. It's part of what makes your podcast.

So like I saw many people send me your podcast all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. My friend Fred is always like, you know, he listens to like hard fork and Ezra Klein and then he'll send me a Holderness family. I was like, Oh, this is a bit out of character.

And he's like, don't pigeonhole me. You know, like he, this is the thing. You appeal to so many people, so many different perspectives.

And you guys were kind enough to give us three formative books. Each as you know, the show's format is to talk about which books kind of help shape you in some way for each book. I'd love to take a quick 30 seconds to introduce it to our listeners or viewers.

And then I'm going to ask each of you to tell us about your relationship for the book that's yours. And I didn't know where to start. So I thought I would choose the oldest kind of book.

I thought we could start with the oldest, raggediest one I have in our house. Is that okay to start with this one?

Leslie:

I think this is a toilet paper bookmark.

Neil:

Yeah. Yeah. Just inserted.

So where'd you read that is what I want to know. What was going on? What was happening when you read that?

Leslie:

Speaking of refined.

Neil:

Didn't you say at the start of this that people were out of toilet paper somewhere in your house? Toilet paper bookmarks inserted for Penn's favorite poems, which he was texting me. I don't want to tell you where I was.

Where the Sidewalk Ends by Shel Silverstein published in 1974 by Harper Collins. This is a white cover with black font images. The top of the cover has a line illustration of a thin crumbling sidewalk stretching across the cover.

On the left is a sign that says edge, keep off. Next to that is a dog struggling to stay on the sidewalk. And to the right are two kids peering off the ledge.

The title, Where the Sidewalk Ends, is in a bold cursive. Centered below the drawing on the smaller says the poems and drawings of Shel Silverstein, who lived from 1930 to 1999. Born in Chicago, died in Florida.

He's an American writer, cartoonist, songwriter, and musician whose works have been translated into 47 languages and sold over 20 million copies. He even wrote the 1969 Johnny Cash song, A Boy Named Sue. What's it about?

It's a poetry collection, outrageously funny, deeply profound, a lot like your videos. And you meet a boy who turns into a TV set, a girl who eats a whale, a unicorn, and a, you know, and a blowth. Your favorite one about the peanut butter and jelly sandwich is awesome.

This one, Dewey Desmonds, can be found under 811.54 for literature slash 20th century American poetry. Penn, please tell us about your relationship with Where the Sidewalk Ends by Shel Silverstein.

Penn:

Well, I don't think I held it until it had been read to me two or three times, because my mother read them to me. She, that one, and also A Light in the Attic. But she, that was, it's so crazy, Neil.

Like, yesterday, I picked it up for the first time in I don't know how long to read it. And I'm a visual memory kind of guy. And so many things came back to me.

The wallpaper on my room when I was a kid, the bunk bed that I had in my room, how my mom, who was tall, had to, like, crouch to get under the bunk bed where she sat on the bed when she was reading this book. What she looked like, she had this, like, crazy perm that was, like, bordering on an afro.

Kim:

My mom had one of those, too, as all moms had in the 80s.

Penn:

Yeah, it made her even taller. And just the cadence of her reading me these poems. And so she didn't go in a straight line.

She would just pick a random page and she would read it. We didn't go from start to finish. I would sometimes request her to read some of them more than once.

By the way, I should give you some reference. I think I was probably five.

Neil:

And where were you?

Penn:

What's that? Where were you, sorry? Probably five years old.

Yeah, where in the world were you? Oh, I was in Durham, North Carolina.

Neil:

You're where you are-ish.

Penn:

Yeah. Yeah.

Neil:

So you're five, you're reading this, you're in the bunk beds, your mom read it to you. And so when you read it yesterday, which you texted me saying, I just read the whole book cover to cover, like, an hour after I texted you. I was like, wow, holy cow, you read that fast.

And you had pointed out that I think some certain poems jumped out at you as well, right?

Penn:

Yes. I remembered almost all of them. Wow.

But here's the crazy thing that happened, Neil, that I was not expecting, is I think my mom picked up very early that when I listen to poems, I hear music. So they don't come to me as spoken word, they actually become songs. So I started remembering some of the songs that were in my head.

There's this poem called The Mustants, because I didn't know a lot of songs at that time. So that was Mary Had a Little Lamb.

Neil:

Oh my gosh. Because that's a poem that Leslie knows really well.

Leslie:

Sing it for us.

Penn:

Listen to the muttons, boy, listen to the don'ts, listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, and won'ts. Listen to the never haves and listen close to me. Anything can happen, child, anything can be.

Wow.

Neil:

By a Timothee Chalamet, Bob Dylan, too. Like that was like a little bit of a cold. No, that was good.

That was it, man. And that's that is on page 27. That is the poem that Leslie read at her cousin's christening when she was a kid, having made it the very first formative book chosen on this podcast in March 2018.

You guys share a formative book on here. Oh, that's cool.

Leslie:

Yeah, my memories of it are very similar to yours, like memories of my parents reading it to me and just that cozy, like so loved and everything's well in the world feeling that kids get when they lie in bed with their parents and read.

Penn:

Did you get the vibe that there was those kind of wonderful ones? And then I think Shell, when he wrote this was like, OK, we're going to let the kid imagine. And then we're going to sneak in some shit that's going to make you not pick your nose.

Because there's this I'll never forget. There's this poem and I believed it forever that if you stick your finger too far up your nose, someone will bite your nose off.

Kim:

Like your finger off?

Penn:

Sorry. If you stick your finger up your nose too far, someone will bite your finger. Like there's someone waiting.

Yeah. Do you think I don't know if you remember this. And it's just a picture of like an old dude with his finger up.

Leslie:

Yeah, there's one where like an alligator goes to the dentist and the dentist is pulling out all his teeth and then the alligator just like chomps the dentist and eats him up.

Kim:

Oh, is that the. Oh, yeah.

Penn:

And if you watch too much TV, you turn into a TV set. Yeah.

Neil:

Yeah. And you singing, by the way, is like genuine music to my ears. Like I have, you know, I mean, you have such a great voice.

You're so musical. And so you singing that to us is really profound. I wanted to just stop and say that so that you know how much we appreciate that.

And if ever and any time in this conversation you feel like singing, always feel free.

Leslie:

We used to play. We used to play that game growing up where all of a sudden we would just like everybody would be singing like it was a musical like please pass the peanut butter. Yeah.

Penn:

Is your life better that way?

Leslie:

We should do the podcast like that.

Penn:

Oh my gosh.

Kim:

Except for I would have to do interpretive dance because I do not sing. Okay, there we go. Important that we're doing a video.

Penn:

Yeah, she could do the like the John Ralfio singing. If you guys watch Parks and Rec, there's this character called John Ralfio, and he ends every sentence with like this terrible. We do that.

Oh, my God.

Leslie:

Well, I feel like I mean, Penn, I think you and Shel Silverstein have a lot in common that there's such like creativity and wisdom, some of the wisdom being like, you know, that maybe threats that you might pick your nose too much, but also some of it really be like there are some good nuggets of wisdom that he kind of weaves into his into his poems. And I think you guys have that in common, like poking fun at truth, commenting on lies, like imagining endless possibilities, having fun with the way that you're saying what you want to say, you know, what would you think? What do you think your secrets are for distilling knowledge in this way or like teaching in like a creative, accessible way for kids, but also for the masses, right?

Neil:

Like your videos aren't just for kids, they're for for adults to like much more than 47 languages and 70 million now, like you guys are in billions and hundreds on those things. So yeah, how do you you're doing it? You're striking the nerve?

Like how? How do you do that?

Penn:

How do you get so he was just really specific. And everything that he wrote about it wasn't what maybe with the exception of the one that we just that I just sang, but you know, a king who's obsessed with a peanut butter sandwich, a guy who, you know, throws a stone at the sun, and the sun goes out, like he just he finds like you said nugget, like that's such a good term for it. He's like something he starts with something very simple, like a guy's taken, you know, an alligator goes to the dentist.

And then he just lets his mind wander into what happens next. And he probably does that before he makes it rhyme and before he draws the picture. But he starts with something really, really simple.

And then the other thing is just to try to try to find a way. And Kim's really good at this to try to find a way to look at the everyday and what's going on, and then make it a banger, like make it explode into something that's really, really funny, and relatable and hysterical. There is Oh, my God, there's there's a poem called sick.

And I don't remember the entire because it's long, but it's I cannot go to school.

Leslie:

Yeah, I remember.

Penn:

Mary Alice McKay or whatever her name is. And then just bitches for two pages about everything that's wrong with.

Neil:

Yeah.

Penn:

And then the last line is what? What's that you say? You say today is Saturday.

I'm going out to play. Is that not the most relatable thing you have ever heard as a parent?

Neil:

Yeah, totally.

Penn:

That's a great started with the concept. I bet you his kid probably had something similar that happened who's like, came into the room and said, I'm really sick. And the guy's like, it's Saturday, and she ran outside.

Leslie:

I love that idea that you're starting with the idea and then coming up with the rhymes or the way to communicate it after because I think that is really almost like instructive in how to get started, right? When you have it when you have a creative idea, it's like, what is the really small little nugget that you want to say? And the how to do it is what really takes longer and you know, is where the creative work comes into play.

Penn:

Yeah, I want to give a shout out to my mom, because she knew all this. I think she knew that this was music. I think she knew that this was rhythm.

I think she knew that like I was learning. Maybe, maybe I was like learning what I was supposed to be when she like, kept coming into my room and reading this. She wasn't a teacher.

She was she was a teacher. She but for the most part, she was a mom. She was a teacher before us.

She was like Michelle Pfeiffer in dangerous minds. Oh, that is so I love your mom.

Neil:

That's the exact metaphor. I used to describe Leslie all the time. She teaches inner city down in Toronto before I had kids.

And now you've got the letter.

Leslie:

Yeah, I'm gonna be going back in September. But yeah, like I love motherhood coming first, right? It sounds like your your mom prioritize that too.

Neil:

Before we get jump into Kim's first formative book, is there any other poems here? Because I flagged them all with TP, as you know, that you want me to hold up to the camera for you to either say or saying if you want to no pressure.

Penn:

Yeah, no, I mean, there's so many good ones. And the pictures are so good to that point. Because he drew and and what do you got there?

Oh, yeah. Oh, this is so good. The loser.

So okay, this was my first realization of what ADHD looks like. And it was about a mom who said I'd lose my head if it weren't attached, which my mom literally said to me over a large portion of my life. And so he this guy like actually loses his head, and he can't find it.

He looks all over the place. And then at the end, he's like, I'll just sit on this rock. And then if you pan up a little bit, the rock is in fact his head.

Don't you think like a lot of his drawings are they go back and forth between very neutral and like expressionless kind of like that head, and then just completely outrageous. And I just thought I thought Silverstein was such a dynamic drawer. Oh, yeah.

Okay, this is the king who ate so the king page 84 is called peanut butter sandwich.

Neil:

Feel free.

Penn:

The king likes peanut butter sandwiches so much. It's all he eats. And then he, he makes a decree that it's the only thing you can eat in his kingdom.

And it's it's, he ends up his mouth gets jammed shut, like you can't open it. And they finally take a bunch of people in pride open and the first thing he says is I'd like another peanut butter sandwich. I love your descriptions of them.

Neil:

I'm gonna have to put the actual lyrics text of these in the show notes. So for those that want to see I can tell me the whole poem like that was a three page poem. It'll be on three books.co. It's an amazing book. It's an amazing book. Shel is an amazing guy. And like, what's the deal with the author photos on this guy's books?

Like, how do you interpret these?

Kim:

Very adult.

Neil:

So it's like, it's like he's so yeah, he's like sitting with a bare foot facing the camera, a guitar laying into me. He's darkly looking down and sour and like, you know, there's like a dark shadow. It looks sinister almost like he's like, he's like the villain of a Superman film.

Penn:

He was in a relationship with someone who was like, I really want to take your picture for the book.

Kim:

Yeah, he's like, it's sort of a childish poem book. And they're like, not anymore.

Penn:

Yeah.

Leslie:

Well, this is the best book.

Kim:

This is now gonna be on wiki feed.

Neil:

Do you have a preference on what we start with Kim for you?

Kim:

No preference.

Neil:

Okay. Okay. So why don't we start with the one and only and thank you, Pam.

That was fun. That was a fun little deep dive into where the sidewalk ends. And so cool that you and Leslie share a formative book.

So the next book is Kim's one of Kim's which is quiet. The power of introverts in a world that can't stop talking by Susan Kane. So the cover here is like this kind of concrete gray like painted kind of almost grim looking cover.

But quiet is in a large red Sarah font. The queue is overly large with a curly kind of bottom. And the subtitle is in the middle of the queue.

I don't know what that middle part of the queue is called. But I must research that for later. The top of the book says now in its seventh year in New York Times bestseller list many more years since then quote by Gretchen Rubin author of the happiest project superbly research deeply insightful a fascinating read.

Well, what is this book about? Basically, Susan Kane who was like, you know, a Harvard educated lawyer like she hadn't written a book before. She basically spent years of her life researching introverts.

And so she's born in 1968. She's 57 years old. She argues that we dramatically undervalue introverts and she shows how much we lose in doing so she charts the rise of the extrovert ideal throughout the 20th century and explores how deeply it has come to permeate our culture.

She also introduced us to successful introverts from a witty high octane public speaker who recharges in solitude after his talks to a record-breaking salesman who quietly taps into the power of questions passionately argued superbly researched filled with indelible stories of real people quiet has the power to permanently change how we see introverts and how they see themselves. Dewey Decimal has filed this owner 155.2 for philosophy and psychology slash differential and development psychology slash individual psychology. Kim, please tell us about your relationship with quiet by Susan Kane.

Kim:

It's interesting. I looking at the books I chose. I definitely it's like when I read them that it was they kind of came in a very impactful time before this.

I don't know that I had the language to describe who I was. I think we had done a pre before we got married. We did the Myers-Briggs test like you do that like mandatory pre-marriage counseling.

Neil:

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Before you got married, you did a mandatory pre-marriage Myers-Briggs?

Kim:

And guess what? Guess who did it? Penn's dad who was a preacher who married us.

It was deeply unfair like a home game for me. I know it was it was really hard to have your future father-in-law. It was very it was very neutral, but I thought it was honestly, it was really helpful because he was the first person to say like, okay, you're INFJ.

You are an introvert. I'm like, I'm not an introvert. I had at the time I was a news reporter, which is a very public job.

I felt like I lived a pretty big life, but there was a profound difference between Penn and I and one of our bigger issues in our relationship to that point is he always, we lived in New York City and he always wanted to be out, out, out. I, after a week of work, literally I had no more words to say. Like I couldn't form words and he would want to talk and really like he was just like the biggest love bug.

And I'm like, honey, I don't have any, I love you deeply. I'm out of words. Like I've used all my words.

And so I thought that was a problem. I thought that I was flawed. I felt shame and guilt over that.

And then, you know, when we had kids, I saw that my daughter tended to be more like me. And I was trying to coach her even as a toddler by like, okay, no, no, no, you got it. You got to have to go and make friends.

You have to like get yourself out there and, you know, preschool. I'm like, oh, go, go with that group. Like go make friends.

And, and when she was quietly happy to play by herself, you know, and play dough at the table. So I was always really worried about her. And I, I read quiet and I had the opportunity to briefly meet Susan Cain at a conference last year.

So that was, I was like starstruck. And I was like, oh, wait, not only am I not flawed, the world needs me. Our relationship would not work if, if, if, if we were both extroverts, the world would not work if everybody was an extrovert.

I think there I think her part of what the work she's done is to educate the world that the world needs extroverts. But I think it was really profound to me. And it's, I felt like I had evidence to give myself permission to erase that shame.

And I could be proud of being an introvert. In fact, we've made some comedy and some sketches about it. And those have done really, really well because people, you know, the more specific you are with your, you know, comedy, I think it works better.

People relate to it so much. So I was just really grateful for that book because every page, I was just nodding aggressively. I'm like, yeah, see, I mean, it was a little discouraging.

I mean, one of the, uh, I'm remembering that she did some, you know, interviews at Harvard business school and it appeared like everybody at Harvard business school was an extreme extrovert. And so that was, you know, it got a little discouraging to think like, okay, if I want to be a Titan of business, I have to be an extrovert. But then I'm like, do I want to be a Titan of business?

Not really. So, I mean, I thought she did a beautiful job with it. I'm endlessly grateful for the work that she did.

And I just am thankful for the language that it gave me. And it helped me honestly parent my daughter who took a Myers Briggs and came out an extrovert, which is, that was, that was shocking.

Penn:

Yeah. That happened. That switched in high school.

Kim:

In high school. I think COVID.

Penn:

For sure.

Kim:

I think COVID profoundly changed both of my kids' personalities, if that can happen. They switched. They switched and my son has now become the introvert, which is really funny.

So anyway, but it's helped me, like, I'm not trying to coach either of them in, you know, to be louder, you know, or to, if they want to chill by themselves, like that's cool.

Leslie:

Yeah. They, they say these things are stable, but don't you feel like they do change throughout life? Like I know like motherhood made me much more introverted.

Kim:

Yeah. And I think that Penn, my big, huge extrovert COVID helped him sort of appreciate. The silence.

The silence.

Penn:

To quote Depeche Mode.

Kim:

I think he he'll admit he's become more introverted with age. He still needs like to get energy. He needs to be around people and he needs to socialize and all that.

But I think he values quiet time more. Yeah.

Leslie:

How do you guys balance that and making sure that you both, you know, have your needs met and also like honor your differences?

Penn:

Yeah. It was a big topic of our marriage counseling.

Kim:

Yeah. And this is very helpful.

Penn:

Yeah. It was, um, you have to understand that this is a, it's not a personality trait. It's a source of energy.

Like it's how you get your energy, right. It's not, um, it's, it's, it's not, I want to do this. It's I have to do this there in order to refuel.

She needs time alone. She needs time to recharge is as crazy as this can sound to people. Extroverts sometimes need a big group of people to recharge.

It like recharges your battery. It can seem exhausting from time to time, but it fills your heart and your soul with what you need.

Kim:

Yeah. Because I love, I mean, we do a lot of public speaking. We had a book, we had a very, um, like we had a book tour with people who would line up to meet us, which was so flattering.

I loved every minute of that. I love, uh, the public speaking part. I love all of that.

I do have to sleep all day the next day, but that's fine. But I know that, you know, and so that's what I'm like, okay, I'm going to sit here and hug and love every moment of meeting 1000 people because they're, they're one-on-one conversations. I actually did a lot better with it because it was one-on-one.

He struggled more because it was one-on-one.

Penn:

Whereas he's good to talk to people at a time. So just give you like a breakdown of this. When we went on our book tour, we would have, we'd speak in front of a big group of people and that would be an hour.

And then it was supposed to be like an hour afterwards. And so that first hour, I am incredibly comfortable. And then it's, it's, it's two to three hours of one-on-one conversations with people.

Kim was unbelievable at that. I got, I finally, I think we realized like that was tough for me. And it's because of the, of the one-on-one instead of the.

Kim:

Well, I think there's a whole ADHD thing going on too. So I think that, I think honestly having my father-in-law be the person who did this, like it was very generic. It wasn't, it wasn't any sort of deep dive into trauma or anything like that.

He looked at his son and said, listen, Kim is going to need after, uh, after a busy week of work Friday night, she's going to need to stay in. And then Saturday you guys can go out. And that became our thing.

We lived in New York city. And so Friday night, we stayed in Saturday night and we went out with friends. And so I, it was, I, I need time alone, but I also need time with him on the couch.

So we have just been able, and now that our kids are a little older, we do have more flexibility with that. So we can do that. So I think we just simply balance it.

And there are times I have to say, and he's so generous with this, we will be invited like, Hey, let's go down the street. Like we have this like restaurant we always go to down the street and there's a bar and he's like the mayor of the place. He'd be like, Oh, let's go, go grab a drink.

And I'll say, you know what? Cause I know if we go in there, everybody will want to talk to him because he's the mayor. Like you should go, you should go sit there and you should have fun because I know if I'm getting in the bath.

Yeah. Cause if I also go, it will just be me nodding and sitting and appreciating all these people, but they really just want to talk to him. So he'll go and not, he'll not be like, well, I wish I had the type of wife that would go with.

He's like, no, this is just the, this is the way it is. Um, right. Yes.

Penn:

He don't, you don't judge me. That's your exact.

Kim:

So he doesn't judge me for it. I don't judge him for it. He gets the time.

Neil:

He needs to get the time. This is like a mirror. This is like a mirror.

We also took marriage counseling before our, our wedding. One of the things she also said to us was Neil, uh, are you okay going out by yourself? Leslie, are you okay staying in by yourself?

Like that was a dawning insight for us.

Leslie:

I was like, heaven, like you're going to go be in a loud restaurant and I get to stay home and be in like the dark candlelit quiet house, please. Like that sounds perfect.

Neil:

Oh my gosh. It was unbelievable.

Leslie:

Whereas I remember you saying like, Oh, like I thought it would be that I would be like leaving her at home and that she'd be feeling like disappointed to not come along. And I was like, Oh no, like it's better for me to be home alone if you're out. Cause then nobody's going to talk to me.

And like he gets to go sit at the bar and chat with everybody and meet people from different places and different accents and like start calling me mayor.

Neil:

I like that.

Kim:

I love that we go on vacation and we have this kind of, you know, secret contract in our marriage. And I don't know when it started, but I never want it to end is he wakes up and immediately goes to get me coffee. Even if there's coffee in the room, I'll call you mayor.

If you do that. Yeah. He, he gets me the, he's like, no, don't drink the room coffee.

Although the room coffee's fine. He goes to get me like good coffee. Like he'll find the best coffee shop nearby and he'll come back and he'll have, he's like, I just met the greatest guy.

Like he'll come back with like a best friend. And I love that about him. Cause it's he, he finds a friends for us.

But then like, then I don't have to do that.

Penn:

Unrelated. Also while I'm down there, I take a dump because you should never poop in a hotel room. It's basically like pooping in the middle of the couch because there's no ventilation.

Kim:

Yeah. So it goes, does, does his business. And I feel like that's the secret of our marriage is to exercise then to, no, it's not.

Penn:

I gotta get a coffee. Usually I order the coffee and then like, it takes a while for the coffee. So where are you taking the dumps though?

And any robe coffee shop.

Neil:

I do always think about that. I'm like, like, Oh, there's always a lineup for the coffee shop bathroom. Like it's just weird.

Like, I feel like lineups for toilet stalls are just generally depressing to me. Like, especially like O'Hare or something like, you know, the urinals are free, but there's a lineup for the stalls. Cause you know, that always, but I like that you're saying you shouldn't shit where you sleep.

I think I'm hearing, I'm hearing you say.

Kim:

Well, just, just, he, he is such a good partner when traveling. He just really gives me my space.

Leslie:

You're making me think of notes on this, on our, on our honeymoon. Um, we discovered, and it's good that we discovered this early in our relationship that like, it's quite perfect for me to just sit in the beach chair and like, look out at the ocean and read my book. And Neil wants to like explore the whole property of the whole hotel, meet all the different people, figure out which restaurant we might go for dinner.

Penn:

So Neil, did it take you a while to not take that personally? Like, cause for me it did. You know, like she doesn't want to hang out with me, like, and do all this stuff.

Neil:

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

This is, this, this is like, I'm, I'm, again, this feels like a total mirror. Like, I can't believe how, and like, you're sitting on the same side of the screen as me. Like, it's like, I feel like this is like a Mortal Kombat mirror match of couples counseling.

Like, this is like, wow. And I also want to throw in, do you have your Myers-Briggs?

Kim:

I know, um, I'm INFJ.

Penn:

He is, I'm a E straddling SNN FP.

Neil:

Okay. Okay. Okay.

And I'm an ENTJ. So this is interesting. And then also just to throw a couple of things in, uh, Jonathan Fields, our guest in chapter 26, host of the Good Life Project and Tim Ferriss have heard them chatting about this.

Both say they don't do book signings after their talks. Interestingly, as introverts, I thought that was interesting that they say no to that. I also want to point out that my favorite leader ever in the history of my life is Dave Cheesewright, who is a huge introvert, but also was the CEO of $800 billion and 120,000 people at Walmart international.

So there is this thing about like Jim Collins level five leadership. That is that humble kind of quiet leader, but it's much more rare to your point. And I did go to Harvard business school and yes, it's like, I'm in Harvard business school, fantasy football group chats.

I happen to be the most talkative one in that chat, but everyone else, it's all blue. Okay. And I have questions from Susan herself here for you, Kim.

Yeah. Okay. So I texted Susan when you chose her book.

And of course she said, oh my gosh, I love them so much. I just met them at a conference. They're brilliant.

I love their stuff. I love their videos about introverts. Like she was gushing about you.

Similarly, she was our guest in chapter 102 at the very first live chapter of three books at the 92nd street Y in New York, she says, and there's followups here. I guess my question for Kim would be how she feels about all the public performance she does for her job, because there's definitely a subset of introverts who find performance to exist in a happy space of its own. Kim's a natural performer and so gifted.

So she could be one of those, but if she's not one of those though, I'd be curious to know how she handles the problem of her chosen art form causing her an energy depletion and or anxiety.

Kim:

Susan must be listening to my therapy sessions. So I do believe that my chosen work is what I was meant to do. I love the, there's something inside me that heals when I create something out of nothing, even if it's my morning journal writing or it's I've written a script or something like my, it is therapy for my brain to create something.

And I love that this, what we get to do is we get to put on these glasses and look at life through these lenses of, is that funny? You know, like I just started, I took one mahjong lesson and I was like, pen, this is like, this is so, this, this whole, like, and I had a lot of friends had started playing mahjong. I'm like, this is so funny how all these like white people are playing these like traditionally ancient Chinese game.

And so the next day he wrote a parody of like mahjong to the thong song, which is really funny. But, um, I just, I love that process. So we joke that we're still going to be doing this in the retirement home.

And there's like, the plug is going to be outside out of the wall and we're going to be posting it to no one. I think that we, I think that is very healing for me. I do love the stage part.

I love that more than I love speaking on stage. I love when we get to perform on stage, I don't get nervous. In fact, I'm like, I wish I were a bit more nervous.

So I feel like I could prepare a little better. I love all of that. That being said, where I, where I feel like I wish I could have, if we had to do it over again, I wish we had not used our real names.

Penn:

I wish we had not.

Kim:

Oh, that's interesting.

Penn:

A lot of people don't.

Kim:

And a lot of people don't. And I think I wish we would have, but then I don't know if it would have worked. Like we, like our house was on there.

And so people know where we live. And so I think where I feel, and this probably isn't strange, but I feel, um, we are, I love that we feel relatable to people, but then there are people that come to our house, which is such an intrusion. And I think that because we aren't, I don't think we're like, we're not like JLo or Jennifer Aniston, right?

Like we're not like actual celebrity celebrities, but I think people feel comfortable enough to come up to us in times when we're with our family. So I think Penn, he handles that very well. And he loves talking to people.

I struggle with those moments because I feel like I want to be like, I am more shy. It's not the right word because I'm not shy. I'm more private.

I am more private. I, we don't actually put everything in our life on the internet. So I am more private.

So that is the part I'm struggling with, but I have created it. So I can't really put that, you know, put it back in the box, but that's the only part I struggle with. So I am that interesting sort of dance of an introvert of like, I do enjoy this, but it does take me, if we do like, we shot videos yesterday and it means we have like our crew in our house and we're, I'm kind of on all day.

Today is like a wipe out day for me. Like I'll be productive in that. Like, well, we're doing this, but then like, we have a call, we have a few calls later.

Maybe I'll do some writing, but it is not a day in which I could be incredibly creative. And I know that about myself now. So I just have like a plan.

I like have sort of a, you know, you know, your right. A rhythm to my recovery. Yeah.

Neil:

Oh, a rhythm to my recovery. That's a great way.

Leslie:

And even just the word recovery, right? Like that, that being that creative and extroverted and on requires recovery.

Neil:

Whereas for me, for pandemic, it might be like, it gives you the energy to do another on a day after a shoot day.

Kim:

He's firing on all cylinders. He's editing. He's thinking of other ideas and I just need a pause.

Penn:

By the way, whatever you just said was really good because you got blue pen. Like this isn't so Neil, when something's really good, he takes out this blue pen and he writes it down. I want to see what's on the page when he's done, but he's only, he's only done it like six or seven times.

So whatever. No, I'm sorry.

Neil:

Well, like, like, so I go to nuggets. I've been using, I've been using the same pen since 2001 when I was a assistant editor of golden words at Queens university. And I have stayed with the same pen since, which is the V5 high tech point by pilot, even though once a year it explodes in my pocket on an airplane.

Leslie:

I think it's more than once a year.

Neil:

Oh God.

Penn:

I thought this was going to be an ad, but then it exploded in your pocket.

Leslie:

He still wears his favorite, like light white jeans that have pen exploded all over them because the jeans are so good. It's amazing. He's like, maybe they look tight.

I don't know.

Neil:

Two things. I got a lot of crotch problems with my pants too. I got, uh, so Robbins, uh, once told me that she started, this was years ago.

She said, she told, once told me that she started, um, staying in different hotels and where her speaking engagements were. And I remember asking her like, how come? And she said, cause you mentioned like the lineup is not only, um, people that love you, but also people that, you know, the lineup, the energy, the time, the three hours is also people that have or identify with ADHD.

She's like Neil, I've equipped people with the five second rule. I've equipped people with saying five, four, three, two, one, and coming up and doing the thing that they're scared of coming to talk to me. So she created that little separation of staying in a different hotel, which I thought was interesting.

I don't do that myself for speaking engagement, but I thought, oh, that's a cool little escape plan. If I ever needed one. And the other thing that made me think of was chapter two of the show.

Our guest was Frank Warren who created the website postsecret.com. And of course, as he launched postsecret.com, he put his home address on it. And so his wife, Jan said, Oh my God, we can never move because everyone's mailing us postcards.

He's out of a million postcards mailed in with people's confessions. And then eventually finally one day they moved, they moved and it wasn't as big a deal as they. And he specially thought he just changed his address and everything and put a forward thing on permanently.

Not the two week one, but like he talked to us, whatever postal service and they like agreed to do like a forever forward for him or whatever. So it was like, he was like all those years. I thought I couldn't move, but I could.

I thought that was interesting too, but we've only done 206 books. So why don't we move on to book number three, which of course is back to you, Patton. And we are going to go with the one and only Dune.

I am talking about, I am talking about the Dune. The Dune. Dune of course is.

Yeah.

Penn:

Yeah. Yeah. He's got so many pieces of paper.

Kim:

Poor Neil. When you're, I really admire the fact that you're doing six books. Bless your heart.

Penn:

Dune is a book by Frank Herbert that feels like it was written this year, but it was written in like the sixties.

Neil:

1965 by Tilton books. So many covers my thick giant mass market paperback, which you can grab from me if you don't mind. There's a retro illustration of orange, red, and yellow gradient dunes.

Frank Herbert lived from 1920 in Tacoma, Washington to 1986, only age 65 American science fiction author, best known of course for Dune and it's five sequels. Holy cow. Five sequels.

By the way, Dune is the bestselling science fiction novel of all time set in the desert planet Arrakis. Dune is the story of the boy, Paul Atreides heir to the noble family tasked with ruling an inhospitable world where the only thing of value is spice. File this one or 813.087 for literature slash sci-fi slash space opera. Kudos to Melville Dewey for having a space opera subcategory. Um, Penn, please tell us about your relationship with Dune by Frank Herbert.

Penn:

Yeah. First of all, shout out to Timothy Chalamet and Zendaya for making this now like popular to the Gen Zs because it's a popular thing now, but I read it when I was, I read it when I was 12 and I read it with guidance from my dad. It's so crazy.

The two, I didn't realize this when I gave you the books, but where the sidewalk ends was my relationship with my mom. Dune was my relationship with my dad. Blue pen.

Uh, he, when the original David Lynch movie came out, he urged me not to watch it. He said, it doesn't cover enough of the book. I'd like you to read the book and I want to help you.

So I never watched that one until I think I was 45 or something. Wow. The original movie.

Um, and it's because he wanted to, I think, wanted to explore some of the themes with me. Um, and a lot of them are things that I took with me for most of my life. Some of them very good.

And some of them probably have seeded some paranoia in my life, which I'll talk about in a second. Um, my dad, uh, and I's main interaction was at a place called Cape lookout, which was this Island, uh, off of the coast of North Carolina that you can't get to without, um, a boat. And then once you get there, there's no, um, there's no actual electricity.

You have to bring your own food. You have a generator that you can turn on, but you got to bring your own gasoline. Um, and everything you take with you, you have to take back because there's no trash, right?

So I lived in a very conservationist mindset on every vacation that I took from the time that I was six to the time that I went until the government took away our house. And, um, June really is like a, um, it's a book about conservationism. So this, this King goes from this world, he takes his son, this Prince from this world of abundance, this like beautiful land to a desert.

Um, and the reason they go to the desert is because of this spice that you were just talking about. And, but really most of it is him becoming one of essentially embedding himself because his family's assassinated in the world of these people where water is the important thing. Well, it's the only thing the Fremen's the only thing when, and they don't talk about this quite as much in the movies, but when you die, you give someone your water, your every bit of water leaves your body because there's no water in the desert.

When you, um, if you meet someone, if you spit on the floor, it is, it is the most respectful thing you can do because you're giving them a small amount of your body's water. They will, they wear these suits that take like half an hour to put on and they have to get adjusted a certain way where all of your sweat, all of your saliva gets recycled and then you drink it gross, right? That's gross.

But, um, my dad always believed. And the reason why he took us to the ocean so much that this was all temporary. If we don't learn how to take care of it.

Okay. And so fast forward to where we are now and icebergs are falling off and it's getting hotter every summer. Um, this was, this was where I, I think first learned at a very early age that, um, you get one world and we seem destined to fuck it up.

Um, so I know that's a little bit terrifying to say. Um, and then the other thing is he, he taught me about AI when I was 13 years old. Right.

Neil:

So you were 13 when you read this, I just got, yeah, 12. Yeah. Yeah.

Penn:

So yeah, we had like an Apple two GS or so we had a decent computer. I was obsessed with computers, but the reason why they mind this spice and why it's so valuable in Dune, and I don't talk about this in the movie really either. Maybe they will in the later ones is it's the only way that you can securely navigate through space without using computers.

And long before this book had started in the timeline of Dune, um, mankind has abandoned computers because of something that's happened, uh, that made them untrustworthy. And, uh, well it's that, that whole AI rebellion from the matrix and whatnot.

Kim:

So Penn is, uh, has his tinfoil hat on with all the, um, you know, the proliferation of AI really is. Whereas I'm trying to learn like how to use it, uh, in our family and planning trips and in our job, he's like, no AI.

Penn:

I'm not saying no, I just don't trust it. And I don't, um, I, like I, there was, there's the deep, these deep fakes now, right? The I'm like, we're in North Carolina, the head coach in North Carolina had a press conference after this game on Tuesday night.

And he was like cussing and saying all these vulgar words. It wasn't him. So it was a deep, fake AI press conference that I completely got tricked on until I realized the coach like never cusses.

Wow.

Neil:

And just totally reality destabilizing reading this at 13. So I picked this up for, I I'd seen both the movies, love both of them because of you picked up the book. Um, I'm only on like about page 83 or so right now, only about a thousand pages left, but I love it.

And it's so good. And I'm reading through it. And funny that you mentioned the AI, because one of the quotes I picked up to talk to you about was actually from page 17, right before the Reverend mother explains to Paul before putting his hand in that like pain box thing, she's testing him for humanness because, and here's the quote, once men turned their thinking over to machines and the hope that this would set them free, but that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them to which Paul replies by quoting something, which I think as the reader, I don't know what it is yet. The quote is thou shall not make a machine in the likeness of a man's mind.

Yeah, bro.

Penn:

That was prophetic. That was written in 1965, which we, you know, we're idiots. We think that 1965 was like 20 years ago, but it was really 60 years ago.

We've lost track of how long ago 1965 was, but it was a long time ago. Uh, and isn't that just, I mean, that's the reason it's the most popular science fiction book of all time. It was incredibly forward thinking.

And, uh, I listen, it's, it's so hypocritical because every single penny that we've made has been because of something that we've either sent out digitally or we've used our digital footprint to market.

Neil:

Right.

Penn:

If you look at our books as well.

Neil:

Yeah, but you're not, but you're still not, you're not making a machine in the likeness of a man's mind.

Leslie:

That's human intelligence, even though you're using technology.

Neil:

Yeah. Like what we're getting is yeah, the wires beam you over to us, but your, your videos are decidedly human and they speak to the human condition in such unique, unique ways that I read this one little list. It's like the last job ever for AI to take, you know, it's like number three on the list is like, you know, massage therapist number, but number one was standup comic because the, the root of a standup comic is commenting on the human condition.

Like that's the root of what they're doing. Kind of like, so it's like an AI would have trouble get up on, on stage and be like, don't you hate when you can't open the peanuts on an airplane? Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

Penn:

Terrifyingly, Neil? Um, there are influencers who I know who are very successful who I won't quote here, but who have written their skits recently by using chat GPT.

Leslie:

Really? Well, like you could, you could type into chat GPT, like write a comedic skit about ADHD and why it is both a superpower and something that you can manage, you know, as a funny, but it was so bad.

Penn:

Yeah. No, I hear you. I'm glad it was bad.

Um, it's, and I think Neil's right. I just was blown away when I was talking to some, like, I have some, you know, you have some contemporaries in this world and they were, they were like, yeah, I don't like AI, but just for the heck of it, I needed some ideas and a holy crap. It's getting pretty funny.

Neil:

I mean, I just saw a recent interview with a Tyler Cohen who runs the podcast conversations with Tyler and is kind of just known as like a kind of a genius among geniuses. And they were asking him, Hey, how does AI change your podcast prep for both of us? And he said, well, I used to like when there was a guest coming on my show and I was like relating to this, he's like, I'd order all 11 books they've ever referenced or written.

I'd read all 11 books they've ever referenced or written. Now I ordered two of those 11 and I asked chat GPT over and over again to summarize, distill and pull out the other nine. So the other nine books I'm out and she reading are like fiction that I want to read.

And I was like, Whoa, like, Whoa. Yeah.

Kim:

Yeah. So yeah, I get it. Um, I similarly, we had a podcast, um, guest this week.

She has a book that's coming out. I read the book over the weekend. I came up with like 20 questions and then I am trying to use, you know, AI more.

Clode, clode, clode.

Neil:

I'm dropping clode bombs so we can get on the one that doesn't use your data. Like clode doesn't use your data from Anthropic. Whereas the other one, the big one, it uses your data.

Just the way like WhatsApp uses your conversations, but signal does not. So I'm like a big signal guy. Good to know.

Kim:

I'm going to use clode, but I went on to the other one, which I'm not going to do that anymore. And I typed in like, you know, some, some, I think some pretty good prompts and it gave me 20 questions that some of them were better than mine. And I'm like, you know what, dude, this is annoying, but I use the questions.

So there you go. Yeah.

Neil:

It's like, do we want to put our, you know, heel in the sand and say like, no AI, like, you know, that's like a recipe for disaster. Like we have to navigate.

Leslie:

And it's happening whether we like it or not. So are we just going to like turn our eyes away and not look at it? Or are we going to see it and try to figure out how to use it, how to stay safe with it?

Penn:

Yeah. I don't mind it as a tool. I, right now, everything that's not working in AI is the fault of larger organizations and governments who found a way to regulate it.

Neil:

And now those two things are merging.

Kim:

Fun. Yes. I'm excited about that.

I'm excited about it.

Neil:

Well, it's all about getting an education, don't you think? And that's why our fourth formative book. That was amazing.

Penn:

Is we were talking about this this morning.

Neil:

I'm pumped is educated by Tara Westover. This is, of course, one of Kim's formative books, a book that I had picked up to prepare for this podcast and have enjoyed the hell out of it is so, so, so good. Published in 2018 by Random House that covers the striking photo of like dead yellow grass with a distant mountain in the background with an old school, like elementary desk just sitting plumb in the middle of the field has a memoir in the tie in the bottom corner and little letters.

Tara Westover, get this born September 27th, 1986, to a rural Mormon family of rugged individualists. And so she's like a stunningly young 38 today, which I think makes her have written this book. And like when she was 30.

Kim:

Yeah, she was a baby.

Neil:

Educated, debuted at number one on the New York Times bestseller list. And I remember personally going down to Book Expo in New York and I had a dinner with every like whatever publishing people and every like everyone was holding a copy of it. Everyone in the room was reading the same book.

I could not believe it. Tara Westover was 17 when she first set foot in the classroom, born to isolated survivalists in the mountains of Idaho. She prepared for the end of the world by stockpiling home canned peaches and sleeping with her head for the hills bag in her bed beside her.

Needless to say, the kids, her being the youngest of seven, didn't go to school. Tara began to educate herself, learning enough math and grammar to be admitted to Brigham Young. Her quest for knowledge would transform her, taking her over oceans, across continents, to Harvard, to Cambridge.

Only then she wondered if she traveled too far, if there was still a way home. Dewey Decimal gives us a weird one here. 270.092 for religion slash history of Christianity slash biography. Okay, Dewey. A little bit off perhaps on that one. But this is the thing about Dewey.

Dewey tries. Dewey tries. Dewey helpful.

Dewey not perfect. Dewey not AI yet. And I don't know why I'm speaking in a weird pigeon.

Tell us about your relationship with Educated by Tara Westover.

Kim:

Again, it was one of those like when it came out, everybody was reading it, everybody was talking about it. You know, I don't know if you saw that TikTok trend, like how often they asked men, like how often they thought about the Roman Empire. And then they're like, oh, at least once a week, I think about the Roman Empire.

And so now the phrase is like, my Roman Empire is like that thing you think about at least once a week. I think about this book at least once a week. Wow.

Because it was if you've not read it, it was so first of all, deeply fascinating, because, you know, that's so far from anything most people grow up with. But the unique motivation of her and a couple of her siblings to educate themselves, and you can't help but put yourself in that position of like, if this was my life, and I was actually, obviously not encouraged to get an education, but actually discouraged from being educated, would I hide in the closet and try to steal away like hide math books? Not.

You know, and I think this hit at a time when my kids, it was 2018 or 2016? 2018. 2018 it came out.

Yeah. You know, kind of like in the middle of what my kids and like, we're like, okay, now we have to do flashcards. And we have like, we were doing so much work to educate our kids, right, to supplement and to, to make sure we're just like adding in the right amount and doing all this, like, it was, I felt like a lot, we were at that stage where you have to do a lot of work to kind of make sure your kids are, you know, achieving in school.

And I'm like, if I just left my kids alone, and would they do this? And I think again, the answer is no. I even asked my kids this morning in preparation for this, and I gave them the scenario.

I'm like, you would be working in the fields. You have like no Wi Fi. So there's not like you would be playing no phones.

There's no Yeah, no phones. There's no basketball practice. There's like none of that.

And your option is working like 12 hours in a field to help you know, prepare for the end of the world or like in your only way out is to educate yourself like would you and my son's like, maybe like even that he's like, I don't know. So I'm just I am just fascinated by how she did this it in and it was I thought beautifully written. And I thought what she's achieved is just really inspiring.

So I think about it all the time in the like, would I if given the same resources at the same time what I've could I've written a book like this? Could have I achieved like this? Could I be this educated?

And it's I just think it's really inspiring.

Neil:

What makes it pop into your head? Like when you say you think about it once a week, the story being inspiring, but also just the concept of self education or auto didactic?

Kim:

Yeah, I mean, I think motivation. I think I'm a very curious person. I think I wonder a lot about people and I wonder like what I'm taking a like an online class because I want to know more about a AI like I'm trying to educate myself on AI and I'm taking like this little online course.

And but it is work I have to it is I have to get like, I signed up for this. I paid for it. I have to do it.

I'm like doing it begrudgingly. I'm like, you know what? That she would have remembered Tara.

Yeah.

Penn:

So I do.

Kim:

It's a motivation thing.

Penn:

So is it motivation? I guess the whole books about my sorry, I'm taking no, no, I like this. I mean, motivation is what the book is about.

But to your point, like motivating in that way that you just said is like, Oh my god, if she can do it.

Kim:

Yeah, I mean, because I think I'm curious about a lot of things. But then life gets in the way. I'm like, Oh my god, I have to drive my son to basketball practice across town.

And I'm just so tired. And it would just be easier to, I love to read, I would be easier just to like, read the mindless thing I'm reading than actually educate myself. And or talk to my mom on the phone or scroll tick tock, like it would be easier to do that.

But to get curious and follow through with the education of yourself is like, that's something that I'm just fast.

Penn:

But also the guilt by comparison of this person did all this. And here I am. It's my way on tick tock.

Kim:

Yeah, it's my way.

Neil:

I love this book so much like doing I'm like about I'm on page I'm on chapter four. I'm not gonna lie and tell you I'm on chapter five or finish it. But it's it's a can't wait to get back into tonight book for me.

I know I'll be done in like probably a week or two because I just every night I'm like, this morning I woke up at 2am our kid was screaming and I could not get back to sleep. So I flick on the reading light and I read a couple chapters of educated so good to get well wind myself back down. Two things jump out for me about this book between the beginning and chapter four.

Yeah. On page 15. Tara's mom becomes a midwife but doesn't have a phone.

So she writes that in quotes, quoting here, the midwife would call grandma down the hill who walked up the hill tired and ornery and barked that it was time for mother to go play doctor. Why you people can't just go to a hospital like everyone else is beyond me, she shout, slamming the door on her way out. And so my question for both of you is how do you balance your relationships with your in-laws?

Kim:

Well, not to be huge downer. Penn's dad passed away two years ago, and his mom is at the end stages of Alzheimer's. So I have to say I feel very jealous of people who have in-laws that are still because they were the perfect mother in law.

I like I won the lottery because they were we had to live with them while we were waiting for our house to close when we moved from New York City to here and we had Lola's baby and his dad made breakfast every morning and his mother's like, can I please do your laundry? It would just be so wonderful if I could do your laundry for you. And I'm like, I will give you this gift and I will let you do my laundry.

They were very, very dreamy. My mom and my stepdad have just moved to town to be closer to us last year. So Penn, how's that going?

Penn:

That's great. No, it's awesome. They're terrific.

So the thing that I've learned with in-laws is you should come into every event with a sense of love and excitement. And as as the person coming in from the outside, like you have this kind of gift of being able to be the hey, what's going on, guys, kind of guy and not have to deal with any of the other stuff that comes with being a family. And then just like read the room, I think is what I've learned is like I've got to read the read the room and follow her lead or his lead.

Kim:

Yeah, I think that Penn is kind of like, you know, like the dancing monkey. You know, you can just kind of like wind him up. And he is so good in a room.

Like he makes everybody laugh. So to that end, I think that there are people in my family that enjoy being around him more than me. So he actually is like, great.

It's actually it's wonderful.

Penn:

Well, thank you. But I also know to me, there should probably be a book on this somewhere. I don't know if I'm the one to write it.

But you, you know, as someone coming into a family, yeah, you don't get some of the inside jokes and you don't like you may not have the same relationships with these people. But you also are this like wonderful, clean slate that you can bring into a situation. And if I think if you tap into that, you can like learn so much about everybody else there.

And I think that there's some real positives to being an in-law.

Kim:

Yeah. And I think we've also learned like he like I can talk crap about my family, but he can't.

Penn:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we learned that early on.

Yeah. She can be like, oh, my God, blankety blank and blank, blank, blank, blank. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I can't even say, oh, yeah, I totally noticed that you can't.

Kim:

Yeah, I think he did that one time.

Penn:

And I'm like, what? And I was just agreeing with you, honey. Yeah, you just go.

Leslie:

I love your positive perspective, though. It is true. It's like it's a get to write like you get to have the second family.

And I think Neil and I both feel very blessed to have each other's as a second family, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Penn:

Kim Kim's dad, her his his wife. Like I I've she cooked so much food for me. It's so much more food than anyone's ever cooked.

Yeah. For me. And so she's like, this is something I didn't have as a kid.

I didn't have an Italian.

Neil:

Oh, wow.

Penn:

On Christmas Eve. Do you know what Italians do on Christmas Eve? Don't say gnocchi.

Kim:

No. Well, they make seven meats. It's like seven.

Like they and then the first time he met my stepmom or first, I mean, I don't even know what you're going to do. He ate so much. He puked at a puking rally and he came back to eat more.

And so I think like she she is the member of the family. I think she likes him more than she likes me, which is fine. It's totally fine.

Penn:

It works. I don't think that's true. But I think that it's it's it's different, right?

Neil:

It's different.

Penn:

You come you come in with this tabula rosa. Whoa. Kind of.

Oh, here. Yes. Blue pen.

That might be the word of the chapter. People wanted.

Neil:

Yeah, exactly. You don't feel like. Yeah.

Like I feel I worry at least that I tire some of your extended family out, you know, because I have the same personality as Penn. I do feel like I got the great gift of grandparents. Three or four of mine were dead when I was born.

And the other one lived in a different continent and didn't speak English. But with Leslie, our kids have had the privilege, extreme privilege of having three living great grandparents. And I've heard about grandparents in law.

All of them live walking distance from us. And yeah, I do worry. I feel like I tire out your dad.

Leslie:

You said the read the room, right? Like the read. Yeah, I gotta read the room is sometimes an important kick me when I come in.

Neil:

Oh, that's like the room is a little lower than where you're at.

Leslie:

All right. We need you at like a six. I've got I've got some.

Yeah, my dad is more of an introvert. And Neil is a big extrovert. And maybe my dad hasn't quite embraced his introversion the same way that you have, Kim.

And so sometimes I think that he feels like, oh, wow, I can't quite get to that level. And then it kind of feels like pressure when Neil is so extroverted and happy and talking so fast. And my dad's like, needing a little more.

Neil:

I just know that I'm exhausting.

Leslie:

I don't know how to do that dance because he's my dad. And you know, so I think yeah, the reading the dance.

Neil:

Yeah, it's reading the room is I've written that and underlined it twice. Last question on educated. This is for Leslie and Kim Kim and Leslie on questioning but you called him a dancing monkey.

But I was wondering about how you balance a flamboyant attention seeking husband because the page 22 of educated it says in the same midwife chapter, Tara is recounting her mother's tale of playing dumb. So the doctors do not suspect she's an illegal midwife. And she writes, men like to think they're saving some brain dead woman, all I have to do was step aside and let them play hero.

And I was like, whoa, like, but then she must come in and be the midwife. No, she does not. Because midwife free is illegal in Idaho.

So she is like, with there was a problem with this lady giving birth. Could you save her doctor? I don't know what I'm doing.

And then the doctor afterwards was like, why were you there? I don't know.

Kim:

It's just like a universal understanding of women. And I sort of hate it. That, like, we've sort of accepted that men want this role.

And if we give them this role, they're just not going to question it. And I think, yeah, that's, that's a universal truth. And it's super duper sad.

I fight it. I am. I'm never going to acquiesce like that.

Leslie:

But and we're, we're, you know, we're all four of us raising men, right? Like, I think that we're some of that, like, toxic masculine masculinity that we're working to move away from as a society allows us to teach the skills of reading the room, teach the skills of thinking about, you know, how you can assert yourself as a woman. And as a man, sorry, as a man can leave room for a woman to assert herself and that both people can have their own strong way to communicate whether male or female extroverted, introvert, fast talker, slow talker, high energy, low energy, there's room for all of that.

Kim:

I love that about our son, because he has an older sister who's very, I mean, Lola is 10 out of 10, type A oldest daughter, high achieving. So I think, and conversely, he sees like, if there's an issue to be solved, he would probably go to a woman because he loves his sister. He admires his sister.

I think he loves his mom. Like, I think he would, he's going to be the guy that like, if there's a problem to be solved, like he's going to find a woman to solve it.

Leslie:

Yeah. And we are burning as a society, some of those memos that it is always a man or a doctor. That's the one that knows all like, I, you know, I think of how amazing it is, even just to think of the midwife example that our four boys hear us talk, both you and me about how incredibly wise the midwives that brought each of helped bring each of them into the world war and why we made that choice to have home births and why we believe that this profession that is a woman's profession is actually superior than this Western medicine man doctor.

Neil:

Yeah, that was a learning for me when we, sorry, oh, I almost said we got pregnant. When Leslie got pregnant, oh, that would have been close.

Leslie:

But you noticed that. And he's like, there's lots of that, like unlearning or, you know, relearning or restating. And I think it takes a strong woman and a strong man to to navigate that territory.

Right. Like, you know, there's been there's been times, I hope you don't mind me saying this, where Neil will say something like, but I said so. And I'm the dad.

And there's the space in our family for me to be like, well, just a minute, like you may very well be the dad, but I'm the mom. And like, I have something to say to you. And he's like, you're right.

OK, what do you have to say? You know, like, yeah, some of these old learned lessons and learnings that we have that are like built into us from society, from like archaic lessons that we just carry in our in our DNA.

Neil:

You know, I do feel good, though, when we go up to that ski place and I see every other dad just like berating their kids. I'm like, whoa, what is like? So I shouldn't say I feel good, but I'm just like, oh, Neil, you are an amazing like like I go to the hockey game.

I like cheering every kid on. Everyone's looking at me because I'm way too loud. But every lot of the dads are like, hurry up, get the puck, pass it, pass.

I'm like, well, like everyone's just yelling at their kids.

Leslie:

I felt so proud of you to use like sports and toxic masculinity in that whole conversation when like I don't know if you guys watch that Canada versus U.S. hockey game. And in that first minute, how there was so much fighting and our boys, some of them play hockey. And Neil and I were both like, oh, my God, like we have to turn this off like this is just so disgusting.

Neil:

I stood up and said, I was horrified. Men have not learned how to control their emotions.

Leslie:

I was like, how is the thing for these men and their families and their parents and their partners that they are that unable to regulate their emotions, that on TV they're doing this like this? How embarrassing like that just so does not look strong to me. It looks so, so weak.

Penn:

And unfortunately, because of that, more people tuned in.

Leslie:

So sad.

Penn:

The games that ensued, they were like, oh, they fought three times in the first nine seconds.

Leslie:

And that's why they fought. Right. Like in that, you know, that's even just shake the algorithm.

That's why we're in the political situation that we are in the world, too, because those extreme aggressive, violent thinking like gets attention and the algorithm likes it. And so then it gets louder. We like the you're fired complex, like all that stuff is like, but but I was what I was going to say is that I was so proud of you when then, you know, that week I was around the our kids hockey rink and we were talking about that.

Some moms and dads and I and I was like, oh, gosh, like my husband and I were both just like disgusted by that. And this one woman was like, oh, my gosh, like you're so lucky that you're that your husband felt that way, because I said the same thing. We got to turn that TV off.

And my husband was like, you don't understand hockey if you don't understand why there's not fighting like this is OK. Come on, like, boys, you listen to me. The fighting's OK.

And I was just like, OK, well, I'm married to the right man because like, you know, there's a lot of honorable hard work for men to do, I guess, in and women who are raising men like us in supporting boys and men to undo some of those thinking. So, yes, women need to continue to be able to, like, stand up strong and voice that they're a very strong, powerful midwife. And also here's to like a little cheers to all of the amazing men of the world that allow women to speak and to and to like unlearn some of these messages of what it means to be a man.

Kim:

Get that blue pen out.

Leslie:

That was great. Where's the blue pen for me? Where's the blue pen?

Neil:

The bookends of that. I stopped my foot and say, listen to me. I'm the dad.

And where's the you didn't write down what? But the middle was great, honey. That was one cap to the whole middle and on to the next book.

Leslie:

That's what he's thinking. No, I'm not thinking that.

Neil:

I'm thinking pause and see if there's any reaction to that before the next book.

Kim:

I think that it's it is interesting because we we have both genders in our house and we the pen's mom because his dad was a preacher who and a very successful, wonderful, hardworking man. But he was a preacher is very busy. You know, he's gone a lot.

So his mom was the most present physically. His, you know, mom taught him to play basketball and his mom taught him to read and his mom play music. And his mom was such a person in his life that Penn is very like he does look if there's a problem to be solved, like he's he is looking for a woman.

He's very comfortable with and a lot of companies he worked for before we had our own business. He worked for women very like he he's not one of those men that think like a man's got to do it. In fact, like he's so I think the way it's it is very fascinating because we all know we all know people who are different.

We all know men who are different. So it's I feel really lucky, too.

Leslie:

Yeah. What do our kids say that Neil will say something like, you know, well, that's you know, that I said that there's no apple juice for dinner. So you have to listen to that being the answer.

And the kids will be like, but mommy is really in charge.

Neil:

They're like, ask mom.

Leslie:

You're not really in charge, daddy. Mommy's in charge.

Neil:

We'll just go ask her. Um, our fifth of six books today, although we could do seven, is, of course, Seven Eves. Let's do it.

By Neil Stevenson.

Penn:

Keep talking. I gotta go to the bathroom. Okay.

Like you're fine. This is the part where he doesn't do a decibel system, right? I'll be back by the time you're done with it.

Neil:

Okay, perfect.

Penn:

Okay, normally we would cut tape.

Neil:

But in this case, we're just going to go and assume that and of course, you know, the background which he doesn't care about. Okay, published in 2015 by HarperCollins. This is a black and white close-up photograph of a human eye.

It says, author of the number one international bestseller, Anathem. So I guess that's his other book. Neil Stevenson is 65 years old today, born in Fort Meade, Maryland, and October 31st, 1959.

Hey, share his birthday with your sister and Halloween. Intriguing fact that Neil Stevenson was actually an advisor on Blue Origin, the Jeff Bezos like rocket ship company in the 2000s. What's it about?

What would happen if the world were ending? A catastrophic event renders the earth a ticking time bomb in a feverish race against the inevitable nations around the globe band together to devise an ambitious plan to ensure the survival of humanity beyond our atmosphere and outer space. Dewey Decimal You can follow this one under 813.54 for 20th century American literature. And while we're waiting for Penn to rejoin the chat, I may as well just tell you a little bit more about this. But first of all, Neil Stevens has got the best giant handlebar mustache of all time.

Kim:

I will also say Penn's genre that he is attracted to the most in terms of reading, and he just finished a 700 page book last night. It's the category, they call it hard science fiction. So it sounds a little pornographic, but he's into hard science fiction.

Neil:

Yeah, yeah. The prefix hard is not used to describe hard. Yeah.

But you know, hard boiled, hard boiled writing is Hemingway, hardcore sex, obviously, but hard science. So we don't know what hard science fiction is.

Leslie:

Probably 800 plus pages, too.

Neil:

Would you like me to tell you what hard science? I sure would like you to tell us about your relationship with Seveneves and, of course, hard science fiction in general.

Penn:

Sorry. I'm sorry. Thanks for letting me.

I overhydrated this morning. OK. You have that too, Neil.

At least it wasn't number two.

Leslie:

He'd be leaving the house.

Neil:

He'd be leaving the house.

Leslie:

The mirror continues. That's such a thing in our relationship, too, that like we're at a restaurant and Neil has to pee like three times for every time I have to go.

Neil:

Thank you for changing the four to three at the last second.

Penn:

Yeah. So hard science fiction is just any science fiction where they adhere to actual either proven or theoretically possible physics. So like when you know, when you're when you're watching, you know, when you're watching Star Wars and there's Jedi and there's, you know, who can like levitate the Millennium Falcon off of a rock or Star Wars, you can travel the speed of light just by hitting a warp button and you don't like that can't happen.

Not yet. So that might become hard science fiction if someone figures out how to do it. Got it.

But the books that I read are based on things that could actually happen if we put enough money into it.

Neil:

Why are you drawn to those versus like you're drawn to like The Martian, which I remember being like, that's how we came up with, like, you know, planting stuff on Mars or whatever.

Kim:

OK. Another thing about my husband, if there is a book, a show or a movie in which the best in their field have been assembled. Oh, yeah.

He that's his favorite.

Penn:

Yeah. Like, you know, something's going to something's going wrong. So you you may wonder why you've all been brought here under the cloak of secrecy.

Kim:

It's because you're the best in your field and we're going to share a secret with you and the world is ending and you're here to help us.

Penn:

Yeah.

Kim:

You have hooked my husband.

Neil:

Wow. That is amazing. I've never heard that genre ever articulated.

Well, assemble the best in your fieldedness.

Kim:

Yeah. And I think the Dewey Decimal System really needs to pick up here in terms of a category because this it could be the OK, just just go list the movies and books that you've read in which the best of the field has been Armageddon and Ocean's Eleven. Yeah.

Neil:

Ocean's Eleven is good.

Kim:

But the end of the world is not happening there. That's OK.

Neil:

Oh, yeah.

Penn:

Oh, it's assemble the best against the fate of humanity.

Kim:

Yeah. Fate of humanity is. Yeah.

Penn:

Armageddon.

Kim:

The core Independence Day.

Penn:

I mean, what are we watching now? Paradise.

Kim:

Paradise.

Penn:

Yeah. They actually said you guys have all been brought here because you're the best in your field.

Kim:

And he's hit. Holy shit. We're in.

So anyway, so continue.

Neil:

Why? Why are you drawn? Why are you drawn to that?

Penn:

Yeah, I I I love feeling small and insignificant and leaving this planet and and seeing a world that that no one else can possibly imagine, but is possible. I love when everybody and usually that happens in space because everyone has to come together. We live in and I'm liking it more and more because we everything that I see.

Is argued about, we have a social media channel that for the most part, people just agree with us, which is great, but anywhere on the Internet, someone is going to to call someone else an idiot and disagree with them on stuff. It's what leads to wars, and that's not very fun. But in wars, everybody kind of in a country comes together.

If the world's going to end, the world comes together. The world comes together to try to figure out an impossible problem. And it is oddly utopian for me if the world is coming to an end because we're all working together.

And I'm so sick of it not happening in the world that I live in.

Neil:

Oh, wow. So you love that story, like whatever it was a few weeks ago about the asteroid that might hit us in like 20 years.

Penn:

Are you kidding me? Do you want to talk about the dark project?

Kim:

Because I'm sorry, Neil.

Penn:

This is real.

Kim:

I hope you know that the rest of the podcast is going to be about the dark project. So this was like two years ago. But we're going to we're going to condense it, baby.

All right.

Penn:

Now, NASA fired a freaking rocket about the size of a refrigerator a million miles away. And there were two asteroids that were one was. This happens all the time.

They're binary asteroids. So one orbits the other one. And they wanted to see if they could alter the orbit of the asteroid orbiting the outside one, which was the size of the Rose Bowl.

OK, that's a big asteroid. If it hits our planet, we're stadium bleeped it. They fucking hit it a million miles away.

Look up the dark. They hit the asteroid and they changed its orbit.

Kim:

So that is something.

Penn:

Why are we all talking about this every single day? It's like you.

Kim:

So I think it's newsworthy. We talked about it that this is his Roman Empire. He thinks about it every day.

And so sometimes when I'm having trouble sleeping, I'm like, hey, Ben, can you just read me like a page of your book? Yeah, I just felt myself gloss over it. And he'll start reading his book.

And then I'm like, softly snoring.

Neil:

We don't not have that in our relationship.

Leslie:

I need the blue pen for that. We're going to condense this, babe. That was a good one.

Neil:

We use a key word there.

Kim:

I was so I admire this about him because this is one of the things like he's deeply curious. He does educate himself on this. This is stuff that like I will catch him reading.

Penn:

He has little space.

Kim:

He has textbooks on like orbital spaceflight because he's he's so curious about it. But he could we have joked like pennies its own separate podcast on this stuff. Like it's it's like a separate podcast.

Space pen, space pen, space cadet.

Penn:

It's like ADHD.

Kim:

It's an ADHD space podcast.

Neil:

Way better.

Kim:

Way better. So because he needs somebody to talk to about this, like he just want he needs. And I'm not fulfilling that for him.

Penn:

But that's what a book is, right? Like, yeah. Have you noticed how different our genres are?

So all of mine are incredibly out there, science fiction, and hers are are valuable, inspiring.

Kim:

Well, I like connect connection in real life, nonfiction stuff I read, though, on the day to day is like, I mean, I cross a lot of genres, but like, I'm drawn to like historical fiction or something. And because I love history, too. But so we are on opposite ends of the timeline to like, I'll be in World War Two.

And he's like, deep into the future. Yeah.

Neil:

Okay, reading about World War Two, we're gonna connect this babe, but the story that similar pen that like, I'm like, why isn't this on the front page of every newspaper every day since the two weeks since I've heard it is the one where like the head guy at Microsoft that came up with this new like computer chip said in a quote, like he actually said this thing head guy at Microsoft. This is like a corporate executive. He's like, yeah, in order to invent this new computer chip, we had to interact with energies from other dimensions.

What? Yeah, that's what is it like a Higgs boson particle? Or is it like, did he say so that's as far as my knowledge goes, unfortunately.

But but that was like legit quote from like the corporate exec like in charge of the charge of the computer. So sorry to kill the rest of your day. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, but we need to go.

That is like maybe a topic for space get at episode three. Last of the six books to your point about the genre overlapping, but also how the like we're not going to talk about this big was kind of like, you know, I like that pants sharing thing. Let's by a little brown.

The cover is one of the best covers of all time. Hilariously, I bought this book for this for this podcast and lost it in my house. So I don't know where it is right now.

But it's in this house somewhere. Tina Fey is wearing a everyone knows this cover. Tina Fey is wearing a black hat, a white button down and a tie with their arms photoshopped to look like the large, hairy man arms of like some other guy, but it looks like her arms wearing a leather watch.

And one of the hands is like, you know, holding the side of her face like that. Tina Fey, born in Upper Derby Township in Pennsylvania in 1970. She's 54 today, best known as so many things.

Head writer, first ever female head writer for Saturday Night Live, host of Weekend Update for Saturday Night Live, host of so many Golden Globes with with Amy Poehler. She wrote Mean Girls. And of course, she created and wrote 30 Rock in addition to writing tons of other stuff.

She's won nine Primetime Emmys, three Golden Globes, five Screen Actors Guild and seven Writers Guild of America Awards. Before Liz Lemon, before Weekend Update, before Sarah Palin, Tina Fey was just a young girl with a dream. And by the way, I'm reading the back copy because it's so good here.

A recurring stress dream that she was being chased through a local airport by her middle school gym teacher. She also had a dream that one day she'd be a comedian on TV. She has seen both these dreams come true.

At last, Tina Fey's story can be told from her youthful days as a vicious nerd to her tour of duty on Saturday Night Live, from her passionately health hearted pursuit of physical beauty to her life as a mother eating things off the floor, from her one-sided college romance to her nearly fatal honeymoon. From the beginning of this paragraph to this final sentence, Tina Fey reveals all and proves what we've suspected. You're no one until someone calls you bossy.

Dewey Decimal Head 792.7028 for art slash sports games entertainment slash stage presentations slash variety shows and theatrical dancing. By the way, that'd be a good memoir category for you guys. Bossy Pants by Tina Fey.

Kim, tell us about your relationship with the book.

Kim:

I think, again, like every book, it's when it hits you. And I think Tina Fey and I have kids of a similar age. And what she talked about, and I read it when it came out.

Neil:

It's been a million years. 21 and 14, she has.

Kim:

Yeah. So they're, I mean, around the same time. I was struggling with feeling like I still wanted to work and create, but also I didn't have this like rosy, like it wasn't a, I wasn't a perfect mom and I felt guilty for not being a perfect mom.

And then she just had some really good, funny language about just trying to survive that part of motherhood. And also something that I have struggled with. I mean, I'm not saying I'm like Tina Fey, but she was the first in a lot of areas and didn't, I think she never really saw her value in those places.

And then we are huge fans of 30 Rock. Penn and I have seen every 30 Rock episode five times probably. And it was interesting reading about how she gave Alec Baldwin a lot of credit, probably too much credit, but she was really the star of that show.

But like awkwardly, she admitted how awkward it was to kind of go from being the writer to like the on-camera person. And I struggle with that too. Like if I think if I didn't have to be on camera, I would love a behind the scenes more role, but I found myself on camera and just, I just find her, she's the one person she's, she doesn't have social media and she's not like that, but she's the one person like I would pay to go see.

And again, is this like a most beloved piece of literary fiction? No, like I, it's probably very few people's favorite book, but I think the time in which it hit me, I was like, okay, Tina Fey struggles with this too. Like Tina Fey is thinking about what she looks like and Tina Fey is struggling, stepping into a role that's been offered to her.

So I just felt like a very real kind of talent and she's so freaking funny. So it was just like an easy, funny read.

Penn:

The end. I think that Tina Fey is the funniest person on the planet. And I think she has been for a while.

Kim:

But she would not accept that. And I think if you told, and so, as you can see, I'm also drawn to female authors, although I'm on a screen with like male authors and I apologize. I typically, if you look at the stack of books on my nightstand, 98% of them are written by women.

So I just fiction or nonfiction, I just am drawn to women and I'm drawn to women's stories who have a powerful, who've made something out of nothing and created successful environments for people. I am really, I'm just in awe of Tina Fey, Amy Poehler too, and how they've created opportunities for women. I could only aspire to do that.

Neil:

Well, you are doing that for sure. Yeah. With your channels, with your books, with What ADHD is Awesome, which by the way, I checked before coming on here and I'm like, oh my gosh, this came out a year ago and it's still top 100 on Amazon.com.

Kim:

Is it? Yeah.

Neil:

It's crushing it.

Kim:

Is it?

Neil:

Yeah. I think it was crushing it.

Penn:

We did the Tamron Hall show and it helped out with that.

Leslie:

Oh, okay. I have a question for you then. Please.

Because it sounds like this book really helped, like all of the books in a way that you picked helped you know who you are. And I love that that's something that you guys talk about as you celebrate aging too. And so I'm curious how you feel like you have worked to know who you are as a woman and how to tilt and balance all the different parts that makes us women, because I know motherhood is a part of the puzzle.

And then you talked about, I can't remember the exact words that you used, but like not being a good mother, which are like not loving motherhood in the way that you kind of expected or were told that you should. How have you honed really knowing who you are and figuring out how to tilt and balance all those different parts of who you are?

Kim:

Oh gosh, she asks really good questions. That's a good question. As you've realized in the books I've picked, and I think this is kind of on track for my life, I do better with some distance from it.

Like I can see now what I, like what was going on when I was parenting a toddler. Like if I have some space and I do better when somebody has given me a word for it. I wish I, so with bossy pants and with educated and with quiet, I, when I have the word, when somebody has given me the words for it.

And so that's why I think the journaling helps and therapy helps. I think that I, I struggle with knowing what's happening right now. Like our daughter is going to college.

So, and we're a very tight knit family. So it is, I'm finding, I'm trying to find the language about it. Like what I'm feeling right now, but I struggle with it.

You know I had a therapy session and I was like, no, I'm great. Like everything's great. I'm super happy for her.

And she's like, okay, but really, I'm like, listen, I don't, I don't see the need to just like sit here and be sad about it. She's like, or you could be sad. You could admit you're sad.

And so I, I am, I just, this is not answering your question, but I'm working on trying to identify the space I'm in and the feelings I'm feeling and naming the feelings that I'm currently feeling. Because as of right now, I can only name it once I'm past that season. And that's really, um, it's not a deal really.

Penn:

But when you, when you look back, isn't it super relatable and don't a lot of other people go through the same thing?

Leslie:

I don't know.

Penn:

I don't know.

Leslie:

Everybody else.

Penn:

I think so.

Kim:

I don't know.

Leslie:

And, and maybe then rather than trying to like look forward, are you able to look back and see what helped you before to know how you were feeling?

Kim:

Yes. And I think that one of the reasons we talk about what we talk about and create what we create is I want people to feel less alone because I do feel like, okay, 2007, that's where my daughter was born. There's a lot of mommy bloggers out there, but social media wasn't what it is now.

I could not find a voice that talked about postpartum depression. I could not find a voice that talked about postpartum anxiety. I could not find somebody else who didn't love every minute of it.

Cause I, of course, I mean, I would jump in front of 12 buses and trains and for my children. And I would have in that day, and I loved them so deeply, but I had postpartum anxiety so bad that like, I couldn't walk down the stairs holding my baby. Cause I was afraid it was going to fall.

And I couldn't find voices that said that. So that's, I think one of my motivations for creating this, but I can only do it now. And I can only say the words now because I'm through it.

Yeah. And because you wrote about it. Yeah.

Penn:

And also you shrouded that so well.

Kim:

But that's not good either.

Penn:

No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that is didn't, I mean, didn't Tina talk a lot about internalizing difficulties? Like that's just something that women are incredibly good at.

But again, it's not good for you.

Leslie:

And so we can like soldier on or become like energizer bunny and just keep going and going and maybe then not feeling what's happening right in that moment.

Kim:

So I'm trying to do a better job of naming the emotions in my present. And that's like the challenge my therapist is giving me. If like I am, and like, don't say like, I'm happy.

I'm sad. I'm anxious. Like what, what is it exactly that I'm feeling in this moment so that I can express that in front of my kids because I want them to have that skill.

Penn:

And also, meanwhile, I had no idea any of this was going on. Like when you were having postpartum until after, until like, until after you, you know, you were over the deepest, darkest part of it, which, um, well, you're so bit, I mean, like he was working and then, you know, you, you just, yeah.

Kim:

And then it's not like, I didn't have the words for it. Like I didn't have the words for what was happening.

Penn:

So I'm glad more people talk about it now. I'm glad you talk about it.

Kim:

Yeah. This took a turn. Sorry about that.

Penn:

This is supposed to, no, no, no, no, no, it's good.

Kim:

Yeah. And I don't know. I just, I really appreciate the vulnerability.

Yeah. I don't know if that answered your question, but if there's a mom out there, it was like, and I like, I love my kids. And I look back at pictures.

I'm like, Oh, I just want to munch their faces. But I have friends that are like, Oh, I wish I could just, I would give out anything to go back and hug them when they were two years old. I loved them when they were two, but I'm like, but then you would lose the person they are now.

Like I love where they like, I've loved every stage. Like I found reasons to love every stage. Right.

But I am. Yeah. I just, I, yeah.

Neil:

I like that. Looking back, looking forward, finding little pauses in the speeding nature of time, helping people feel less alone, finding voices and providing voices about unheralded or undiscussed issues from postpartum depression, to messy husbands, to ADHD, to so many other things. What you two do is more than a gift and more than a voice.

It is an articulation.

Penn:

And a sneeze. It was really nice what he was saying. I'm like, I don't think I'm going to make it through.

Neil:

That was awesome. And so appropriate because that's kind of what you do is you provide it, you provide like a, like a sneeze within the pressure release. Like it's like, no, but this is what you do.

And it's a gift. And so, um, you know, uh, you braved the wilderness of trudging through six formative books with us, um, being up for this wild four person conversation. It's a real gift and honor our community of book lovers, writers, makers, sellers, and librarians is deeply grateful.

All the three bookers out there really appreciate it. I can speak on behalf of them. And I just really want to say a big, huge thank you for this opportunity.

Kim:

Oh my gosh, this was lovely. I love books. I love reading.

I wish more people read books. And so I just love this podcast and it's in the, how you use your platform to, to celebrate authors and readers.

Penn:

Yeah, dude. Super positive vibe always, always with you, Neil. Um, and thank you.

Um, thanks.

Kim:

So great chatting with you guys. This has been fun. I like the couple talk.

Neil:

Yeah. Leslie joins on, um, kind of a few and far between. And then the number one comment and email we get is how come she doesn't, why doesn't she host the podcast?

Penn:

I almost literally almost said that, but I didn't want to hurt your feelings.

Neil:

No, it would not hurt my feelings. I'm well aware that she's better at me than this.

Leslie:

She's just not available because I only sometimes say, yes, I wanted to talk to you guys.

Penn:

She also brings out a little bit in you, dude, like a little bit of, um, like a different vibe from Neil. Like that, we do this as well. And we realized that sometimes we're better together where sometimes we're better.

Most of the time we're just, we're better together.

Leslie:

Most of the time.

Penn:

So I just need to figure out how to like work these in.

Leslie:

Except when I need an app. Or he needs a walk. Oh yeah, I walk a lot.

Neil:

Um, Ken, Kim, Holderness, family, thank you so much for coming on three books. It's been a joy.

Kim:

Ah, joyful. Thank you so much for having us. Thanks you guys.

Neil:

Hey everybody. It's just me, just Neil, just hanging out in my basement again, listening back to the wise and wonderful Penn and Kim Holderness of the Holderness family. Did you write down or pull out a few gems in there?

Like I did, I got a few things written down. Like try and find a way to look at the everyday and what's going on and then make it a banger. So much wisdom in that, you know, I think with the book of awesome and the thousand awesome things, that's all I was doing, right?

It's flipping to the cold side of the pillow, uh, smelling bakery air. It's like simple stuff, basic stuff. I mean, probably the root origin in like Seinfeld's observational humor in there somewhere for us both, I'm guessing.

Or how about this quote? Before I read Quiet, I didn't have the language to describe who I was, uh, by Kim. Just a wonderful kind of illumination of the power of a book.

I thought I'd mention that one. Penn, the thing I've learned with in-laws is you should come into every event with a sense of love and excitement. I should confess that I needed to get better at this.

I don't know. It's hard, I think sometimes. I think early in our relationship, you know, I was always like feeling this push-pull between both sides of our family.

My first marriage, interestingly enough, I was very close with my family and, um, my ex, who I loved deeply, was not as, you know, didn't, we didn't see her side of the family as often. And so I always thought, hey, this is going to be great. We'll just fill all these slots of like my side of the family.

But of course that didn't work because it was really more about a value in terms of wanting to spend time in different ways that she had. And so it wasn't that she wanted to not spend time with her family, more with my family. It was like, she just wasn't super keen on tons of family time.

And then it created, you know, one of many kind of pieces of friction in our relationship. A relationship that feels honestly like it was in a different era to me right now. I know I went into a rabbit hole there.

Penn, I love feeling small and insignificant. Isn't that true? Like, isn't that the definition of awe, right?

Feeling small and insignificant, feeling lesser than you are so that your problems and your trials and your tribulations are not as severe in any sense. Kim, I wish more people read books. Why don't we just end there?

That seems like a great quote to finish on. And now get into the... Well, it's really five books to add to the top 1,000.

It really is five because the first book, Where the Sidewalk Ends, is actually an asterisk on number 1,000, also brought to us by Leslie Richardson in chapter one. And then we've got number 561. I got them in the wrong order here.

Uh-oh. Number 561 is Quiet, The Power of Introverts by Susan Cain. And then number 560 is Dune by Frank Herbert.

My 559 is Educated by Tara Westover. 558 is Seventies by Neal Stephenson. And 557 is Bossy Pants by Tina Fey.

Wow. Okay, five books to add. And you might be thinking, well, five books, you know, how can you have five?

Like, isn't it three books? Well, yeah, but Jean Chrétien gave us two, right? And some other people gave us books that have been mentioned before, like Nakeisha the Dogwalker gave us Catcher in the Rye, which is also an asterisk.

So she ultimately had two new ones. And I think as the list goes on and on, like, it's going to be like 2030. We're going to be in the 300s or something.

And I'll be like, thank you so much for your three books. I have all of them on the list. You have three more?

Do you have three more? So I'm—it's a bit of a prickly puzzle that I'm trying to—I'm trying to think of a P word—prickly puzzle that I'm trying to possibility? I'm trying to pull out?

I'm trying to figure out whatever. We'll put the alliteration to the side for once on this show. Penn, Kim, love ya.

Thank you so much for commenting on three books. It was a real treat and a real trip. Thank you so much.

Really appreciate you being here. All right. Are you still here?

Did you make it past the three second pause? If so, I want to welcome you back to the end of the podcast club. This is the club where we hang out.

We've got a bit of an after party. It's one of three clubs that we have for three books listeners, including the Cover to Cover Club, which is people that attempt to listen to every single chapter of the show over the 22 year lifespan of the show. And we also have The Secret Club, which I can't tell you more about.

But the way to find out more about it is to call our phone number at 1-833-READALOT. And as always, let's kick off the show or the end of the podcast club by going to the phones.

Louis Mallard:

Hey, what's going on, Hanson? I am sitting in Brazil in a beautiful backyard doing some work and just finished listening to episode 29. I like that you're republishing the older episodes because I'm too lazy to go through and kind of like pick which ones sound good.

So I just, I always think it's a new episode and then I'm listening to you talk and you're like, I'm 39. And I'm like, oh, Neil recorded this a long time ago. So it's kind of neat to listen to you in the past.

I really enjoy your podcast. I know I say it a lot, but it's got some of my favorite intro music, too. Whenever my phone is just playing random podcasts and I hear your intro music, I'm like, sweet, this is going to be fun.

And then I kind of feel like I'm hanging out with you, too. So that's nice.

Neil:

Wow. Does anybody recognize the voice? Because he actually didn't say his name at the beginning there, but that was the one and only Louis Mallard.

That was Louis Mallard. Call him back. That was our guest in Chapter 139.

Yes, indeed. The Duck. The Duck, the interdimensional, psychedelic folk artist, the man who is now taking over the streets in not just Brazil, where he was calling me from, but Montreal, Canada.

He's been parading around, been featured on the news. I love what he does. I love street art.

I love street performers. And I love his hilarious quote about releasing the classics, kind of interspersed with the new chapters. Because, yeah, aren't we all too lazy to scroll backwards?

I don't have time to scroll backwards, Louis, and neither do you. I love and appreciate the honesty. Thanks for the shout out for the music.

That was composed for the show by Roberto Ercole. I put his name on the FAQ, threebooks.co slash FAQ, for those that want to look him up and maybe have him compose some music for you. It was great.

And I do kind of want to get back in the long form, I think. We've been lately kind of trimming the opening music. I like to let it ride.

I like to let it kind of just go for a while. It just feels like entering a place, an interdimensional, psychedelic place. Louis, thank you so much for the phone call.

It's always wonderful to hear what past guests are up to as well. Now, it is time for the Word of the Chapter. Should we do Word of the Chapter?

What do you guys want to do? You want to do Word? Or, you know what?

I was thinking we could do a letter in the form of... I've been getting some real snarky comments lately on our chapter with Jonathan Franzen. And I remember when I spoke to him, I was like, oh, do you want me to send you the feedback we get?

And he's like, no, I never read them, and I can't, or I don't, or something like that. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. He doesn't read his own feedback.

Although, you know, I imagine if you're writing really kind of thoughtful and dense literary fiction, you have a really thoughtful and dense literary crowd. And sometimes those people have a lot to say, good and bad. And I imagine some of those pieces of feedback hurt.

They certainly hurt when I'm reading them. Like Rona1220 who says, I don't care about the room you're in. I don't care about the lamp next to you.

The host talks way too much. It's his channel, so he can do what he wants, but I will not be visiting again. There's a reason this channel doesn't have more views in all this time.

Ouch. Another one two weeks ago. He is not a good writer.

You are lying about this, and you don't even know how to read. Okay. Trevin Alger says, maintaining and propping up spaces for speakers like Franzen is important, but this interview was tough.

There have been years worth of time Franzen has been asked to stop speaking about a dead friend in this tone with the same type of questions, and that would have taken days worth of research. There were so many painfully awkward moments brought on by a lack of connection and a kind of formal practice toast personality. Ouch.

It goes on, you know. It's like, it's like, I'm getting like, I'm getting like pillory, is that the right word, on YouTube with Jonathan Franzen. Why?

I love Jonathan Franzen. I thought the conversation was great. We've kept in touch.

We've been talking about birding. He's been recommending I get a scope for the birders out there. A scope is kind of like, you can see a lot further than binoculars, and it goes on a tripod, so it's kind of tough to lug around.

But if you see like a small bird perched on a tree in the distance, or like shorebirds, you know, walking on a beach, and you can't quite see them with your binoculars, pull out the scope. So I've been talking to him about that, and I eagerly await the potential next book in his Crossroads trilogy, if indeed that does happen. Why did I read a bunch of reviews?

Because I just want you guys to know, I'm human too. I get negative reviews too. It's not all just glowing ones.

I'll put the glowing ones at the beginning. How about that? And now it's time for a word of the chapter.

And for this chapter's words, we got to, of course, go back to our guest. Let's flip back into the show now.

Penn:

You come in with this tabula rosa.

Neil:

Yes, indeed. It is tabula rosa. What does that mean?

Tabula rosa. Dictionary lady, can you help us out? Let's hear how we pronounce that.

Neil:

Tabula rosa.

Neil:

Tabula rosa. What about you, Miriam Webster? Tabula rosa.

Tabula rosa. A little bit more emphasis. By the way, Miriam Webster says there's two definitions for tabula rosa.

The mind in its hypothetical primary blank or empty state before receiving outside impressions or something existing in its original pristine state. Tabula rosa. This is very interesting.

Basically, it's the idea that individuals are born empty of any built-in mental content. So all knowledge comes from later perceptions or sensory experiences. People who support this idea are usually on the extreme nurture side of the nature versus nurture debate.

By the way, I think I would be on the nature side. That's kind of what I read about in Freakonomics and kind of what I've come to believe, that it's nature over nurture. But, of course, you could argue the other way.

So this would be nurture over nature, that you come to the world as a blank slate, a tabula rosa, and then everything's imprinted on you after. But where does that word come from? It's, by the way, two words.

T-A-B-U-L-A is the first word, tabula, and rosa is the second. So it translates as clean slate into English. It's from the Roman tabula, which is a wax-covered tablet used for taking notes, which was blanked, rosa, by heating the wax and then smoothing it.

Heating the wax and then smoothing it, turning it into a blank slate, a tabula, that became rosa, blanked, by heating wax and smoothing it. So it refers to your mind or you being open to input as a blank slate, tabula rosa. That one blew my mind.

After the full conversation with Penn and Kim Holderness, Leslie, thanks for being here. Penn, thanks for being here. Kim, thanks for being here.

And all of you three bookers out there from Forrester, Australia to Tokyo to Japan to Russia to England to Brazil and everywhere in between, we love this conversation. Thank you for joining me on 22 Years of Book Digging Pilgrimage. Until next time, remember that you are what you eat and you are what you read.

Keep turning the page, everybody, and I'll talk to you soon. Take care.

Listen to the chapter here!